the main problem when i spar against the taketori is the higher push. if you stand as close as possible to another AV it takes 3 kicks of a normal katana to push somebody who isn’t blocking out of range whereas it takes only 2 for the taketori to achieve this. the increased push also flings the kicked person up into the air a bit, more than it happens with other katanas and that makes it harder to counter a kick of the taketori because you have to adjust and point your mouse down at the right moment, also you cannot move out of the way in time because you cannot run as long as you are in midair and so the taketori user can get a slash in without problem or even a second kick followed by a slash.

another thing is the random damage assignment for slashes. i compared this some weeks ago using the old hud to get the exact numbers and noticed that a slash of the taketori very often takes away 19 HP a few times even 20 whereas the max of others usually was 16 to 17 with very few exceptions when it went higher than this. i was too lazy to take notes of exactly how often i got which results as i tested this out but i’d love to do this again, if anybody is interested in doing some testing like this please feel free to IM me inworld.

those two things are to me the most noticeable issues which give anybody who uses the taketori an advantage over other swords. nothing like this occurs with the wave.

it is not impossible to counter the wave, i don’t understand why this is said so often. i use and spar against it often and got used to the anims and i cannot say it is exceptionally hard to counter but yes i believe ashes and archs are easier to counter, not musashis. i don’t think this is because they are faster but both the anims of the musashis and the wave are lacking keyframes and that makes them appear choppy. if you watch somebody W-slash with the HoD you’ll see the AV lifting block, turn to the left, one leg goes back, the arm stretches out and then the attack follows. there is a recognizeable transition from block to attack and this is missing or reduced with the wave and the musashis, there is not that much time to recognize that an attack is about to happen. since the anims of musashi/wave attacks are not that fluid it is harder to spot the moment when an attack is about to begin but that doesn’t make them faster per se.

also my experience is that the wave just works more consistently, i noticed huge differences in the length of one and the same attack move with most of the other swords, huge gaps and extended timewindows, sometimes it can takes ages to go back into block after you kick with an ashes kat. also respond times vary widely, often it is impossible to chain attacks in a fast tanking encounter because at one point in a block/kick/block/slash/block/slash sequence most swords stop responding to my keys at on me point although i am spamming.
the wave responds better, when i press keys things actually happen and they happen in time and in a consistent manner. it works best and this makes it - for me - the best sword out there and besides the HoD my weapon of choice.

i don’t see this that much as an advantage, it is more that i can see more or less obvious flaws with other blades. and as a european who spars with average ping times of 180-200ms i very often find the most unbalanced matter is to spar somebody whose respond times are 1/6 of a second faster than mine.

thank you robby for this great weapon (the wave, not the taketori lol), good luck finding adequate testing methods.

Kasumi said…
something that prolly translates to less than a minimum wage job for him

I get between $0 and $15 USD worth of sales on any given day, lately averaging about $5 or so (when there’s a “Please refrain from transactions” problem that day, I typically get only one or two sales at most for the entire day)

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So I’ve started compiling the thoughts and ideas I got from the comments here into a list of what I want the bots to be able to do and to test, and I hope to be able to turn that into a set of tests within the next couple of days. Once I get that done, the coding part will probably be mostly getting my bot code up to date with all of the changes to Second Life and libsl, which I expect to be frustrating but not terribly difficult. I’ll keep everyone posted on the progress, and will most likely ask for feedback on individual tests once I get that far.

They would *certainly* never be able to give me the kind of feedback that a human would, and cannot conclusively tell me whether a weapon is really operating as it should, but here are a very few of the things I expect to be able to do with them that I think would make them useful:

• Provide realistic timing data - Over perhaps thousands of iterations, and possibly hours of consecutive running time, they can report on the average amount of time it takes for various operations like single slash, slash and kick, slash to block, etc, etc.
• Similarly, they can be used to tell me just how many hits out of, let’s just say 100, were able to get through a block in various scenarios.
• Ensure (and prove) that attack range is where it should be for all attacks. Similarly, they could measure push range from kicks, etc.
• Record absolutely everything they do, so that it might in fact be possible to narrow down the sequence of events that causes the Math Error problems by noting everything that came before it if they encounter it.
• When bugs are discovered, and I know that the Taketori still has several, a special script (script in the sense of ‘follow these steps’) can be created that allows the bot to perform the tests on demand. Even for problems that rely on very particular timing, a bot should be able to reproduce that. This will tell me when a bug is fixed, and if I run the tests during weapon development for each version, will tell me if the bug ever re-appears. This is, of course, what is meant by unit testing, though I think bots can be more generally useful in testing as well.

So while they can’t tell me everything I would need to know, by being able to perform an exact set of steps for any number of repetitions and for any length of time, there’s certainly a lot I could learn that would be beneficial. And the less time it takes to develop a weapon, and the less bugs, the better, right?

Last note before I head back to work : Ideally, by making the bots use standard key commands to perform their actions, they should be able to test all weapons, and all combinations of them as well

I am more ignorant about how C:SI even works than I should be for playing with it for so long so I guess I would assume that bots can measure stuff that would be useful and more “objective”. But as annoying as it probably was for Robby to be getting 50 conflicting opinions on the Taketori I don’t really think you can do bots alone either. I guess thats kinda obvious, but I’ll say anyway that whatever you attempt to measure you don’t know the directions human creativity will take with the basic components combined into more sophisticated technique. So when actual people use something it can be different than whats on paper. But everyone knows that already.

Someone mentioned that in my profile I state that there are weapons I won’t spar anymore. I feel bad doing that because for one I think the issue with the Wave and the Taketori might just be that they work better. I and a few others noticed how many people have started using Taketoris and Waves almost exclusively and how at least a good portion of them must have the system sensitivity to realize they are using a katana that is better than the other competing models. But its sort of a difference in philosophy I think, that some people feel Robby has a better product so they will support that, whereas others see the balance issues created by 1/4 of the katanas meaning that you should stick to the 3/4 that are more closely balanced to each other (since the Wave and Taketori are in the minority within the system). I think a lot of people just find Robby’s swords more enjoyable to use and so its not necessarily about them seeking unearned advantages (but people are people, so there obviously is some of that going on too).

On just what the issues are I’m not totally confident about specifics, so the bot idea is probably a great way of narrowing it down. As is the case with a lot of people though, we have used this system way too much and can practically balance our checkbooks while we spar from being so familiar with the system, and the slightest thing being off can trigger that sensitivity right away, even if we can’t figure out specifically what we are feeling.

The Wave is the easier to pinpoint though. It goes from block to slash to block much faster than other kats. Makk already mentioned that though. I haven’t sparred one in a while so forget some of the other things I’ve noticed. But the counter feels somewhere between the other kats and the ninjaken, maybe closer even to a ninjaken than a kat (or it seems that way).

The Taketori I think is either countering faster OR is just countering more consistantly based on the intentions of the user than the other weapons do in a wider set of circumstances. But the result is the same. I don’t think its a huge difference though, but I can tell that its there, again for one of those two reasons I’m guessing.

Also I’ve noticed that it seems to benefit more often off the block bug, where if you hit a block JUST on the side of it being a good block you will not stun. I’ve noticed that I am getting hit through tiny block fakes by Taketoris that normally would result in them being blocked and unstunned on other swords.

This is also the case with retreats after a stun. I know that if I am a certain distance away and I am stunned, if I retreat within a certain time, and retreat a certain (usually short) distance back, and then put up a block, I will not get hit as my avie moves just over the line of being within and outside of range. The Taketori user can get these hits that normally would be blocked, again cause of either the speed difference on the counter or in what I mentioned about it getting a lot of slack on these close call hits that the others swords will not get.

I’ve also noticed that in long chained tank exchanges that as the hits of the exchange progress there seem to be opportunities for the Taketori user that have traditionally been unavailable. This is harder to describe but if you imagine a linked exchange of blocks and kicks and slashes, and the sequence and timing in which they fall, there are certain safe gaps of transition where you know in that instant a hit cannot come, based on when their last hit came and on when you can get your block up again. The Taketori seems to occassionally get hits in on these spaces that I’ve never had to deal with before and cannot do myself with another sword model (I primarily use Musashi).

I had a conversation the other day with someone suggesting that I am maybe not skilled or experienced enough, or too maladaptive, to contend with things that are actually fair. So thats one possibility =D

I’ve also heard things expressed that its the user and not the sword. I agree that the benefits of the Taketori are going to be small with a new user, but the slightest edge in strength will be amplifed in the hands of an experienced or skilled user. I think that fact comes into play in these discussions all the time. A lot of people would talk about how they think nagi’s are easy to spar against, and in the hands of a lot of users thats probably true. And if you look at someone like Meludo or Hibiki, those guys are just flat talented. But to point out that the Nagi gives a user certain advantages (since April 07, lolz), then its a false dichotomy to say “no they are just really good.” Yes they are good, which is what allows them to maximize the pay off of the imbalances of the Nagi. Same goes on with Taketori.

Another thing I hear a lot is the opinion that people are glad to have diversity and that if they all functioned exactly the same that would be dull. But thats not what balance is. Balance refers to advantages without accompanying and meaningful weaknesses. Imbalance takes some burden off the user’s skill to get a certain result. And C:SI being so sport-like and centered on competition for its own sake, thats a problem, since C:SI doing that so well has been the main draw at least when it comes to the main community of users. There are some other pretty fun and well made weapons for RP systems, but the strength differences in your character set up or weapon abilities matter less since its more an RP suppliment. The more C:SI resembles that, without an RP element to justify it, the less compelling C:SI becomes relative to other systems. So balance really *should* be obsessed over cause its what makes it worth doing.

And one last thing. Robby is one of the nicest guys Ive met on SL. He is very devoted to this system and to us. He tears his hair out using his big brain and experience on something that prolly translates to less than a minimum wage job for him. And when someone puts all that work into something primarily for someone else’s enjoyment it can feel awkward and mean complaining. Not that it stops me, lolz. So I hope Robby knows those things and that its not personal, and I am only avoiding sparring these things cause I’m sentimental and old school and can’t help getting aggrivated by the consequences of balance issues, and I also totally expect things to work themselves out cause I don’t doubt his commitment to the issue, so its just temporary. Its mostly just me trying to have as much fun as I can, just as some people have more fun using his weapons than others. So just hope no one gets offended =)

Kasumi Hashi’s latest blog post is : It sucked me in again.

There are some flaws in some weapons concerning the topic of balance that wont even be seen by the community users until after the weapon has been out for several months. The human aspect in testing and product development is must, it is a very much needed thing. I highly doubt Robby would ever consider the idea of not using beta testers to provide feedback so don’t get me wrong in that aspect either.

The best balance test I can see is still a comprehensive comparison made by testers with data feedback tools. Which reminds me Robby, check your email

As Judo said its possible to counter take kicks with this “simultaneous game thing”. all i’m saying is that you dont have to do that against other swords. So.. while i have to pick the right timing to slash a take kick befor i actually have an indication that a kick is comming the take can wait for my kicks like it used to be.

Hm. What are the consequences when i have to do this “simultaneous game thing” (lemme use SGT as an abbreviation lol)? The right thing to do when someone kicks me is in general to slash him (when i’m not expecting a slash after this kick). If i kick too i’m just reacting without a gain of advantage, when i stay in block i obviously lose. So.. its slashing. But when it comes down that i have to “predict” the timing of the kick (and its not enough anymore to know the next thing he’ll do is to kick) then i’m in a much more difficult position then he is. if i’m slashing his kick he can still slash back. if i miss this mysterious timing i need to have then i get stunned and get either a couple of kicks or a counterslash. So.. on the long run i have a pretty hard time against the kick which shouldnt be the case. (And the great thing of csi without the need of SGT is that ppl came up with faking to prevent kicks from being to easy to slash and all this stuff). Allright.. and now imagine a good take-fighter with a decend understanding of tanking *sigh

And thats the reason why its easier to survive with the wave against the tak, because you cant counter the wave so all you get is a kick in worst case.

if someones tanking-qualities are limited to “wait, kick, block, wait, kick, block, wait, kick, block” he should be dead kinda fast because that doesnt really show any kind of understanding how csi works (worked). but the same guy is doing a lot “better” when he uses a tak cuz if i fail to predict the time i’m in a bad position again.

And yeah, if everyone would get a take/wave things would be “balanced”, but what about the other swords then? But lets be honest, the take/wave is making a lot ppl feel better so.. anyways, “objective” testing is the goal of all this and i tried to come up with what should be tested/ensured from my point of view. If you want to test something you need to know how to test it and *what* to test.