Well, it just might turn out that you’re absolutely correct. I admit that I haven’t spent a great deal of time fighting with or against the naginata, and that may be a part of why I was unaware of the long range of the naginata’s kick. With all of the comment’s I’ve read lately on both sides, I decided to see for myself and headed to Meiji to nab the nearest volunteer (I forget who it was now though, because Second Life has the most annoying habit of forgetting my chat log preferences and it didn’t get recorded as I expected it to).
In order to test this, I took one of the non-phys vehicles that I recently coded up, and changed the code so that I could sit on it and specify a distance and it would move precisely the distance specified from a given avatar. This allowed me to very precisely control the distance in order to find out what was or was not in effective range, and I felt that it was more reliable than measurements taken using prim rulers or other similar methods.
So here’s what I found : I was able to be kicked at distances up to 3.8 meters by the Naginata. Yup, more than a meter more than the Taketori and Wave.
And that brings up another interesting point, actually : I have now checked and double-checked the code on the Taketori and the Wave, and they are specifically coded to have a range of 2.5 meters, but today’s testing showed that they worked up to 2.7 meters. Not much of a difference, perhaps, but it does indicate yet another way that Second Life doesn’t typically do what you tell it to do 
I don’t feel that this was a really robust test, since it’s possible that other factors came into play. For instance, sitting on an object changes your bounding box size to include the object being sat upon, but it shouldn’t change the center of mass that is supposedly what is actually tested for using this method, but I wouldn’t bet too much money on that since Second Life has any number of quirks that don’t exactly follow the documentation.
Also, I only performed the test on a single region and on a single day, so it’s also possible that it’s an issue with that region’s server-side simulator code that may or may not exist in previous or subsequent versions. Again, I wouldn’t bet any significant money on that, it’s just an idea that occurred to me.
Still, at least I’ve been able to independently verify that reports of the naginata having a longer kick range are true. Now maybe it’s supposed to be that way, I’ve never been curious enough to ask Archanox before now, but Esprite’s comment on the CombatSI forums leads me to think that it’s not supposed to be that long.
Popularity: 47% [?]
It’s confirmed! :O
Yupyup, I saw it with my own eyes
To beat the nagi with a kat you need to get in close, and that long kick can stop you from doing that, or inflict enough damage on the approach that you are behind the eight ball. I don’t think its any accident that often the winners of tournaments use a nagi. Reduce the kick range, and you have a much more balanced weapon.
Well, I would agree that it seems pretty clear why so many tournaments are won with the naginata: There’s something that makes it particularly well suited for the task. That’s not to say I’m disparaging anyone’s skill, far from it, but there has long seemed too strong a correlation to believe there wasn’t at least *something* to that idea.
I know that there are some *extremely* skilled nagi fighters, so I hope those people don’t take that comment negatively, because it’s not meant that way by any means
As I posted on a different entry here, I really suspect that the attack a ranges might differ from sim to sim. I should think that a full meter difference in the nagi kick vs kat kick would be picked up by the simple “I kick you with this, you kick me with that” method.
I’m getting those also, and I think it has to do with how The Lab has started rolling out new server code in stages over multiple days.
I suppose that it’s possible that it has something to do with the nagi kick range, but if that were the case I’d expect to see a similar increase in the katana kick range on those sims, since all C:SI weapons use the same core techniques when it come to the range.
Right now my current (and unverified) thinking is that it’s just that the nagi is coded to have a longer range. What I don’t know yet is whether that’s intentional or not.
Actually… Now that I think of it, I didn’t test whether I was receiving damage at the range I mentioned above, I only went by sound. I suppose it’s actually possible that the sound was misleading and I did not receive damage past a certain range. I doubt that’s the case, but to be thorough I should probably test that as well some time today.
There has to be something inconsistent about the kick range, because I did a test with Hibiki a couple months ago where I would stand at the farthest distance at which I could slash him with my katana, then he would take a small step backwards and kick. His kicks didn’t hit me when he did this.
Colin’s latest blog post is : Monkey Karate
Shindo, Lynkis, and I did a test for this as shindo mentioned on the Combat: Samurai Island forums. The results are the same, and we make sure that we wern’t just hearing sounds either. I received damage at a confirmed 3m Now the tool I was using to watch and monitor range didn’t not give me specifics for the exactly range (example 3.2 or 3.5) . However, it was good enough for us the sim version that this was tested on was 1.21. So if folks honestly think it could be sim to sim issue, it could be that it was actually a change made recently in 1.21. However, I honestly doubt it was. Personally I have a gut feeling its been there for a while longer than that.
Well, I’ve certainly been hearing about it for longer than that, sure.
You are probably right, though it is odd that people are reporting various ranges rather than a consistent 3m range. That might be due to testing methods, which is why I chose a different method than any I’d heard about before.
The inconsistency actually bothers me as a developer far more than the range does, quite frankly. If the range is consistent, then it’s pretty clearly scripted that way, and is easily fixed, but if it’s inconsistent then perhaps we should look into *why* that’s the case so that we can make it consistent. And fix the range at the same time
I think a lot of the unbalance issues have to do with the kick. I have noticed I can beat more people with my katana vs there nagi now. Part of the reason is what Judo said, I can now get in close and take minimual damage because I am no long pushed back.
JulieAnne
I’ve heard from people who use the nagi regularly that in a nagi v nagi spar sometimes one nagi can connect a slash from a distance that the other can’t, and that the issue can be addressed by detaching and re-attaching the nagi. Maybe this is a general range issue that’s related to that and not specific to the kick.
That makes me wonder just how consistent that problem is… For instance, once it happens does it stay like that until a detach in every case? From comments that Esprite has made it seems as if the nagi has some moves with greater range than others, so it’s certainly easy to see how that could happen sometimes. So the question is whether it’s that kind of thing or something else entirely.
Any chance of getting those people who’ve told you about that to actually post something about it here or (preferably) on the Bug Reports forum?
I don’t remember who it was. It was a long time ago. But I will try to bug some of the people who I know use the nagi more frequently and encourage them to look at this thread and the forum discussion.
Sure, here ya go Robby
BTW, later on in the posts she confirms that when she typed Katana, she meant Nagi. Should have added that in the first place.
JulieAnne
Ah, I remember seeing that now. Unfortunately, while it does show that more than one person has had the issue, there’s not enough information there for me to try to guess at what the cause might be. Well, maybe, but not any solid guesses, at least.
For instance, the code is the code and doesn’t really change, so why should a newly-rezzed weapon be different? I haven’t a clue, though I will continue to think about it and hope that more information can be provided by the users.
This really is not meant to sound as testy as its likely to, but this has been obvious to regular users for 13 months now (I remember I and most others I talked with then noticed it in early April of 2007). Someone mentioned to me that Arch was in Meiji once explaining how its kick range is the same as the kats and people that think otherwise are confused… but it takes one spar to notice that you are getting kicked and can’t slash back, and after a full year of that being the case in every spar there was never any doubt in anyone’s mind that I talk to and who isn’t brand new. Also, one moderately advanced skill set is knowing if you are in and out of range by the size of your opponent on your screen (so that you can run up to them *just* out of range and fool someone less skilled into thinking they can hit you, then tapping forward into range and countering once they do), so most people can tell without even having to slash back that they are being kicked out of counter range.
This is another reason that Arch and Ayame should at least peak in on the forums (since Im pretty sure the longer range was discussed way back on the old forum), and realize that if someone uses C:SI an hour a day and they say X, and someone who wrote the code and never uses it (or uses it in isolation from real competition) says Y, I bet 9 times out of 10 X will be right.
I think the problem is the inconsistent results that people get. We work on the swords and provide support, and we try to listen to the bug reports people give us, but some of them tend to be confused about certain mechanics of the swords to say why something is broken.
That’s why we rely on our knowledge about how the swords work when making deductions about things. Really what is most important is when people like Robby provide real data for us to look at. We have a small team that splits their time between SL and real life, we cannot maintain development and duel at the level of some of the regulars, so having hard data helps alot when we can’t always prioritize testing specific aspects of certain weapons. (the last thing I was able to test with arch was trying to track down exactly what was causing the matherror bugs to which we got some idea but needed further tests with linden feedback..which we haven’t gotten much of, we thought it was possible kick was related as well in some ways.)
I’ve asked Archanox about the range of the nagi when people asked about it and replied to those who had questions regarding this based on his feedback on what he programmed it to do. No one has ever provided data otherwise, and really this is the first time one of the devs tested it and found some real numbers so we can begin to look at what is effecting range exactly.
When dealing with inconsistent results its hard to come to the same conclusion as others, we do test the weapons quite extensively even new features and have begun working with testers before making releases as well, mostly things with SL are getting more complicated than they used to be, and the scripts in the swords themselves are getting quite large and complicated as well. Hopefully with mono we’re able to better consolidate the code to work properly.
Robby I think is probably the most experienced when dealing with real bugs. We have Arch and I who are still students are are learning really and gaining experience being developers. I do think we have some ways to go in effectively communicating with the issues our users face. So I do apologize for confusion we have regarding problems people may have.
However we do have a plan, and I hope you all continue to trust us with development of this system. I think we’re all pretty dedicated to C:SI and we’re all expanding what we know and our methods to further advance the depth of C:SI and to continue to keep things fun.(for example I’m now gonna be working in a mocap studio and have done a few captures that I’m trying to work into SL for C:SI.) I’m pretty sure we’re pushing alot of SLs limits with this system so we’re probably gonna be coming across alot of bugs that other people might not come across.
So I hope you all don’t get too annoyed with poking us on issues you find, and we appreciate those that can provide us with numbers showing bugs.
As for the forums, if it doesn’t work to post there its best to IM the dev of the weapon you own or even better leave a notecard. I know some of the devs don’t like forums as a method for communication. (See the comments on the SL blog for the reason why :P) Though I do try to follow up with the other devs with important issues that get posted there.
(sorry for the lame grammar!)
As mentioned earlier though Arch is going to be reworking the Nagi and this issue will be looked at.
Yeah, I remember when I used to have a few hundred duels a week, now I’m lucky to get 10 or 20 in a “slow” week. There’s definitely a level of understanding that’s missing from not being able to spend a lot of time actually using the weapons under ‘real world’ conditions, but unless I forgo sleep *altogether* I just can’t squeeze in the time to do it
WOW, I think thats the most I have ever seen Esprite write. So with that said, I know he sees the importance of getting it right for the rest of us. Thanks Esprite.
JAR
OMGosh! You don’t come to a site for a bit and bam! A whole bunch of dtuff happens. lol I think the reason that you are not getting consistant numbers is because, that the ones testing it use different ways to measure distance. If we all had the same tools, then I think that you’d have your consistant results. With that said, we realize that you are all busy. There are people that try to help out as much as possible. A friend and I are going to make tools to try and test weapons. Maybe then tests from us may be more helpful. With that said:
Let my army grooooooow! lol