So like the past few days there has been some amazing discussion on C:SI. Balance concerns on new blades and C:SI in general, gaining an advantage, and excuses have started some interesting threads on blogs and in IM and got…

1. The Taketori sweep kick has no inherent imbalance. And it looks awesome.

2. The BDs are whack because someone who picks it up for the FIRST time has the ability to tremendously change their win/loss ratio against someone to whom they previously lost a great deal. As silly as it is to have to point this out, this is NOT the same as getting better through training. And so the BDs are different from all of the other C:SI weapons thus far.

Takuan said:

As for the sweep kick being a problem… I just can’t decide the best way to deal with that right now. I know it can be harder to see, but I also think it’s something that is easily countered. Ask any good fighter whether can tell, usually, when someone is likely to kick and I think they’ll answer “yes”.

This reminded me of something from The Unfettered Mind so thought I would dig it up…

Zen master Takuan Soho wrote…

When facing a single tree, if you look at a
single one of its red leaves, you will not see
all the others. When the eye is not set on
any one leaf, and you face the tree with
nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves
are visible to the eye without limit. But if a
single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the
remaining leaves were not there.

I really don’t think the kick is an issue, just as Aimee pointed out the avie size differences. These kinds of things are simple matters of adaptation and are so small that they aren’t that significant in my opinion. Besides, my avie is 5′6″ tall, which is my RL height, so I don’t feel bad for all the 7′ avies out there =P

Aimee said…

I agree with balance to a point but the system would be boring if every single blade was 100% balanced and even. Each blade has a style and if I have trouble beating someone I switch blades and styles.

I agree with that, but by balance I think its more about for every strength is there an accompanying weakness that makes each weapon the same strength as any other weapon *on the whole*, accounting for the variations of styles those unique strengths and weaknesses require.

I started C:SI in mid-August, and the Nagi was never very popular until about the summer of 2007. Prior to the spring I thought the Nagi was imbalanced toward being too weak if anything. But they did three things to the system in the spring of 07:

1. 1) Made all the katana blades closer too each other in speed (and I think they used the Arch blade speed as the standard?). It used to be that the Musashi counter was noticeably faster than the other counters, the Ashes seemed to combo smoother, and the Archs were just slow, so very few people used them (Rain used one BECAUSE it was slower). So any blade except the Arch blade versus the Nagi had no issues out tanking it, it was actually incredibly easy. So when all the blades slowed down, and the Nagi apparently stayed the same, countering it became much harder than it used to be. Had this been the only change I think the Nagi would have been better balanced within the system, but…
2. 2) They made kicks stronger. I don’t know what they did specifically, but the update mentioned that kicks damage modified, kicks are not more effective, or something like that. So ever since its been possible for the kick to do more damage on its high end then a sword strike on its low end. The effect of this was to make kicks in general less of a gamble, whereas before they had to be used cautiously on blocks since a countered kick meant losing significant ground on damage exchange. Now its probable that you will lose ground, but the ground you lose, if any, is less now. I remember someone calling it a “kick exploit”, meaning that spamming kicks carried less risk than it used to and so was unfair (which is going too far but kinda makes the point).
3. 3) It was around this time that the Nagi’s kick range became the same as the katana kick (becoming known as the “sniper kick”).

So you add this up, and the katana user has less of an advantage in tank cause of the new slower speeds (which by itself would have been fine), and the range advantage of the nagi user is now supplemented by a kick, that combined with its new higher damage, new longer range, and the push that kicks have, meant that the range advantage became way more strong than it had before. So the new trick to using Nagi became to maintain your range advantage with kicks and movement, and IF a kat user doesn’t take a done of damage just trying to gain position within striking distance, the slower speed means you can probably get back out of their range without taking much damage yourself (it seems like kat counters versus nagi need to come at the beginning if the hit, before the damage of the nagi strike, since it goes immediately back to block after the bullet strikes, meaning the kat user is now way more open to taking more damage than they can dish while tanking despite the (now smaller) speed advantage.

I still find some regular nagi users relatively easy, but its because they do not know how to use the sniper kick to maintain their range. If you fight with Meludo or Hibiki, those two have perfected it to the point where they can make 4-5 major errors and I can make 2 and I still don’t think Im getting them below 50.

One stat I used to use that worked was jump slash spams with the ashes, but considering Havok 4 has made those spams less effective (one awesome thing about H4 at least, lolz), and since I felt guilty using any kind of spamming strategy (which wouldn’t even work vs Hibiki cause he does almost nothing but air moves himself), there really isn’t a position of power available to katana users anymore, the nagi user is ALWAYS in a power position so long as they maintain range with their kicks. The reason the kat user can’t be considered to have an advantage when they do close the range is they inevitably took enough hp and stam damage just getting into range that if they DO get some hits while tanking (so you are not trying to catch up on the damage you’ve already taken less than trying to actually get ahead), the timing is now much harder and inevitably brief since the nagi user Ive described is not going to sit there close with you very long.

And one more thing about the challenge issue. I will sometimes spar versus the imbalanced weapons for that same reason, or use the Musashi duals vs a kat user to make it more of a challenge, but I would much prefer that the challenge come solely from the raw skill of the opponent. There are some people I can win with maybe 10 hp and/or stam taken from me at the end, and when they switch to BDs I am suddenly barely able to win and start losing some, and this is AFTER I’ve gotten out of cruise control and start really trying my best to compensate. Yes its more fun to be challenged in that way, but it bothers me cause its occurring for the wrong reason. I want to be challenged by their raw skill, not how well they can manipulate the imbalance of their weapon. Its a bit like levels in other games, where if you are at a level 2 and someone is at a level 20, they might be challenging, but so what, lol. SL is my first “game” too, but I haven’t found anything nearly as fun as C:SI for that reason, its traditionally been so centralized and determined by user skill and merit instead of artificial stuff like levels or which weapon you happened to buy.

Anyway, sorry Robby for taking over your blog with my babbling, lol.. not going to bother proofreading so sorry for any typos.

Aimee Congrejo’s latest blog post is : Various Inworld Issues? Duh.

“I guess my personal and easily-ignored opinion is block isn’t that big a deal. ^_^” - You actually told me that once. You said something like, “I guess I should block more, but meh.”

“I welcome people to exploit against me. I *want* an unfair fight.” - Your posts make way more sense to me now.

Solace said…
It’s hard to see what is an actual imbalance that needs to be addressed by the devs. For example, there are weapons that are really really difficult to counter in tank. Does that mean that anyone who uses them is unbeatable? Heck no.

Aimee said…
But yah Mal I agree with you about there being a gray area between telling fighers to just suck it up and telling the devs about a bug.

It is sometimes very difficult indeed to determine what is or is not “in balance”.

Case in point : Ayame and I chatted briefly the other day about the new weapon she is making, and she mentioned that she’d discussed the issue of balance at length with Archanox, and they still weren’t 100% sure whether the proposed constraints would result in balance.

I can assure everyone that all of the C:SI devs take balance very seriously, it’s just not possible to foresee all of the things that will affect balance, and that’s where feedback is so critical; You guys tell me a weapon of mine is imbalanced, and why you think so, and I look into it. We discuss it here on this blog, and in the C:SI forums, etc, and hopefully eventually arrive at a consensus and then resolve the issue.

Solace said…
And as I hit Submit, I’m sure I’m going be chewed out…

C:SI a living, evolving system, and that means that we need strong and bold opinions, and lots of feedback! Even outright arguments, if done constructively, can help us make the system better over time

Cuz like I fight within the rules and etiquette and honor but I welcome people to exploit against me. I *want* an unfair fight. I *want* to have everything tossed at me be it fair or unfair. I have the most fun fighting against people who spacebar and use physics exploits and those exploit attacks against me!

I guess it’s just cuz of my RL…I *welcome* an impossible challenge. ^_^

But yah Mal I agree with you about there being a gray area between telling fighers to just suck it up and telling the devs about a bug. I guess my personal and easily-ignored opinion is block isn’t that big a deal. ^_^

Aimee Congrejo’s latest blog post is : Various Inworld Issues? Duh.